Recently, a new fan who found me on YOUTUBE asked me if I used a metronome to develop my sense of groove.
Not a simple question, or topic, I am sure I’ll say some things here that will raise some eyebrows.
That being said – “there is more than one way to do it”. I can only tell you what has worked for me, and I still have a lifetime of learning ahead!
Here goes.
I have never, ever, ever practiced with a metronome. I do not recommend it at all. I’ve tried a few times, but shut the damn thing off after 5 minutes, for real. No joke.
Let’s start wayyyy back with these questions: What is groove? What is rhythm? What is time? What do you think you’ll get out of practicing with a metronome? Why do it?
I was lucky enough to have the greatest teacher around – pianist Mike Longo – teach me rhythm, and he learned from Dizzy Gillespie.
There is a big difference between “head rhythm” and “body rhythm”. Also – there is a difference between mere “time” and a “pulse”. To play music with an AFRICAN rhythmic concept is very different from a European rhythmic concept. The experience that led me down the right path was learning how to play African rhythms on a simple hand drum (which Mike learned from Diz).
What happens is a law of physics gets activated when “the drum” is played properly. It’s a 12/8 rhythm where all the 3’s 4’s 6’s and 12’s subdivide – but this is not intellectual at all when you’re doing it! A European rhythmic concept can have all these poly-rhythms and subdivisions, but the “accents” which are unique to the African concept are buried in the drum rhythm.
When you are playing it or hearing it properly – you experience “body rhythm” and your body starts moving like James Brown or Count Basie- without effort, without “trying to look” like you are grooving for the sake of appearances. Nope, this groove is the real thing. You can feel it, and everyone else can too. It’s an “US” thing – with the performer and audience, not a “ME” thing.
I’m not judging one or the other as better. What I am saying is that just as Einstein “uncovered” E=mc squared, African drummers and musicians “unlocked and uncovered” certain musical aspects of rhythm that to my knowledge, no one in Europe did. Likewise, the great composers- Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Ravel, and Stravinsky – to name a few – unlocked realities regarding harmony, melody, rhythm, counterpoint, and form that African musicians did not.
Once you experience this groove it on the “drum” the choices you’d make on your instrument regarding dynamics, fingerings – everything – start to shift to accommodate the new rhythm concept.
Here’s a fun tune where I get into a groove, and let me just say – I am still a servant and a student of music!!!
Groove starts at :42
Let’s imagine things in life that beat to a “pulse”, and that could not be set to an external clock: jumping rope, spinning a ball on your finger, juggling, dancing, the human heart beating – to name a few. None of these things could be set to an external clock, nor would that be the point! Imagine trying to jump rope to a metronome!
The misconceptions in “practicing to a metronome” are:
1) that time is linear (it’s not, because it’s one big NOW moment) and
2) that these pulsating things – (African rhythm, juggling, jumping rope) produce perfectly measurable and evenly spaced pulsations. They don’t! There is a natural correct ebb and flow – and speeding up or slowing slightly is LEGAL and correct, depending on context.
Hitting beats at even time intervals has NOTHING to do with groove or body rhythm. Click tracks can KILL the groove.
2020 Update – Chick Corea says the same thing! 🙂
I have played with many musicians with “perfect time” and no groove. As well, I have played with groovers whose time is not the greatest, but their groove is happenin’!
I recently played in a band where a musician was not pulling his weight groove-wise. Sometimes he sounded too fast for the band, and sometimes too slow. He was thinking “metronome time” and the band was thinking African time – so we had apples and oranges as far as rhythmic concept. It was a far deeper problem than what musicians call “rushing” or “dragging”. It was 2 different universes!
Grooves can get faster or slower and still be right. Put on an old Stevie Wonder, Earth Wind and Fire or Count Basie or John Coltrane. Did it speed up or slow down? You bet – but them grooves is 1000% right! On the flipside, some of the most non-grooving crap I have ever heard is all the music done with sequencers and drum machines – with perfectly metronomic beats, which my mathematical standards (but not human heart standards) is played to ‘perfect’ time!
No words I can write here will give you the experience of what I am talking about. No matter what your level of talent is, you’d need to play with a more experienced musician whom you honestly trust groove-wise (in your heart) to teach you. It’s a tradition that is handed down.
Alvin Queen – he is the greatest jazz drummer alive right now, and quick online videos can’t do him justice. He was Elvin Jones protege and played with Coltrane when he was 12.
Play a slow groove with him, and it’s so big, deep and in the pocket – it makes you feel like you are ahead of him. Play an uptempo – and watch out, it’s time to get smoked because he is so intense, and you feel like he’s pushing you. Look him up on YouTube! He’s the greatest – ask anyone who has played with him.
According to Alvin, he himself never practiced with a metronome.
This definitely gets to be expensive when you have to pay for those lessons, so this is how I learned about the sound of the sixteenth note, the eighth and the quarter note.” Alvin Queen
What can you do to deepen your groove?
1) Go with your gut more than your head.
2) Dance!!! I don’t care how good someone says their time is. Get on the dance floor and let’s see what your feet and body say. I love dancing. Feel funny dancing? Well, then you’re just as funny playing music. No excuses – dance!
The sad reality is that I have seen MANY regular people at disco’s exhibit a greater sense of body rhythm with their dancing than many musicians do with their playing!
3) Play with the heaviest groovers around. Go right into a situation that feels intimidating and go up against any fears or insecurities you may have.
4) Play the blues, play with soul. It’s easier and more natural to get more complex with harmonies and melodies on a basis of blues and solid grooves than it is to play complicated music and try to go back and find the groove.
5) Know that people like grooves. Get your audience to participate, and not just watch you. It’s not about you – it’s about the vibe and the magic.
Most people don’t realize that when I am playing complex lines I am focusing on the groove. As well, staying “in the pocket” has offered me numerous technical solutions I would have never come up with otherwise.
Rhythm is the basis of music, so treat it as such!!!!!
“It don’t mean a thing if it ain’t got that swing” – Duke
“Just because a record’s got a groove don’t mean it’s in the groove” – Stevie
“Never trust a drummer that can’t dance” – Art Taylor (I think)
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True, true, true indeed! I play the drums, the hand drums and the piano and have been pondering the metronome for years asking all the best musicians I’ve ever met what their thoughts are. Never thought of just searching it on the internet though, actually the reason I searched the topic was because I wanted to find out how prominent the metronome figured in Bachs’ life.
Sweet groove, I love it! It was fownke…
Dome
Well i remember playing with the drums with a metronome real slow, and would slowly speed it up, and within 2 weeks, i had a pretty consistent rhythm, but my dad would play with a metro that was too fast for him to keep up with.
I dont know how anyone could be so …. I mean what saxophonist says my tone is good i dont need to play overtones.
I was learning rhythm guitar, i practised to a metronome, and i get a better rhythm, but i know some people who dont play with a metronome “natural practiser” and there timing is horrible, they skip beats, speed up towards the end of the song.
This is my opinion
Maybe for somepeople its different, maybe they learn better being a “natural practiser” idk maybe people need to do both types of practising because in a sense people need to develop their own sense of time, then record it then plsy the recording against a metro, but still, just ignoring the metro is a bit foolish, and even playing with the metronome only is not good either imo
Btw this is my opinion i dont think its the ultimate standard so yeah you can practise the way you want,
Btw i may seem mad im not 🙂
Metronomes can be useful, I know you are not mad. Grooving, with a band uses a different musical “muscle” – and I am simply encouraging everyone to look at that strength rather than just following a click. 🙂 AR
DUUUUHHH well, apparently the metronome wasn’t even available until after Mozarts death!! Go figure, and my piano teacher taught me Mozart and got pissed of when I told him I hadn’t practiced with the nome!
Dome
Thank you for the excellent post. It was a joy to hear about the deeper thoughts of a musician which are hard to come by on the net. There are too many websites / books that only discuss notes, chords and strumming but don’t mention anything about “MUSIC” or anything else that would give me the impression that the material was written by a human with a beating heart and not simply auto-generated by a computer. I hope you continue to include such personal wisdom in your posts.
Jeff, Canada
I get what you’re saying, but I also feel that most people either have a natural tendency to groove or don’t. Of course the way you approach music can either develop that tendency or inhibit it, but I think that if you’re a “groovy” person, you’ll find a way to groove regardless of whether you use a metronome or not.
As to those people who are straight AF (a lot of those here in Germany), do you think they can be taught to groove? I’ve had a hard time trying.
Santi it’s a touchy issue like politics or religion, everyone is strong in their opinion. Metronomes are a good correction device after someone is at a high level…but like bike riding, and juggling – you can’t really get the answer from the outside. I have exercises I show people to help develop the groove naturally.
If you watch this video – of course it is African, but it shows exactly the time concept on which all our pop / jazz / funk / blues is based. The core and naturalness of the time the people in the video are keeping was not learned from a metronome.
Then comes the question – are we the same? Answer: yes.
Hey Adam, have you heard of CK Ladzekpo from Ghana ? There’s a great series on his polyrhythm teaching here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yK42w0H8rSU
Looks excellent – thank you!
Very well put. Everyone that I ever tried to teach I let them know right away that I could not teach them very much technique wise but I could teach them about making me believe and feel that one note….
thanks for your thoughts.
Sal
Interesting debate, I understand what your saying , although I don’t agree with you at all.
The problem that you discussed, in my opinion is very relevant to another more frequently asked question, which is “should a musician learn theory or should he just build up his own thing ?” and my answer is and always will be is that theory starts when talent stops, at least to me that’s how it is.
Both the theory topic and the one you discussed are very tricky, simply because they are both something that are very critical and there is no one to judge your playing but yourself. Too many theory will make you play by the book, and none of it will be directly depending on your talent, which could result in you making many mistakes while your thinking they are “ok”, they are not, because the people around you get ear damaged, you can say well you have to play what you believe in and what you think is true and don’t care about anyone else, well I would agree to that but I will have to remind you that music doesn’t flow through you since your birth, you are born and then you hear the music not the other way round.
My point is your music is not the absolute truth and although “wrong” is respective to the musician, you can be mistaken even to yourself, only you might realize it a few minutes, weeks or years later, maybe even never.
If you find a guitarist or a musician that can just play what his heart desires and feel the groove then why the heck would you want him to learn any theory or play by the metronome ? He’s talented enough to pull it through. However if he can’t feel the groove, or if he can’t play well say with a certain chord progression, then he has to sit down and do something about it, weather it would be dancing like you mentioned, or breaking it down to pieces.
Anyways to cut this story short, the metronome is good if you want to play with other musicians, because they play by it and you can play like the beats of a heart beat “not even” but you can do that alone. Just like the human vocals have notes that you will never be able to achieve with you guitar doesn’t mean that you can neglect learning scales.
If you can play without the metronome than good for you, it doesn’t mean that it can’t help other players through, not be their divine judgmental instrument, but just help them.
Using a metronome has been a huge help to me learning drums. I’ll be using a metronome for the rest of my life. I can’t dance, does that make me a crappy drummer?
Hi. I’m a long time drummer. I have always avoided metros as well. I only used them during the occasional practice sessions where I feel I just need a bump in the right direction.
However, I prefer to sing what I want the feel to be and use my body ( swaying right to left, back and forth ). I will speed up and slow down the tempo a bit during songs, in fact, I have been known to stall slightly right before a guitar/keyboard solo, then explode into the solo at a slightly higher tempo. I can achieve freight train strength grooves through solos that will literally knock you backwards.
Pick up a tempometer. This will track your time, and you can set windows of acceptance which allow you to stray – ever so slightly – from time for a creative feel.
Very well stated, agree with it entirely, this is why I don’t use a click. Occasionally it’s useful for some applications, but generally is not need if you’re a good musician.
Hey dude i definitley understand your side of this. I dont use a click either. I really have only used it once or twice. My time use to be really bad, but once you get the feel for really playing you dont really need a metranome.
Also, that video you playing superstition was great. You dont happen to have tabs for that do you?
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Great playing. The time rushes.
A really good read!! I also play the traps (40+ yrs)…I have practiced (a little) with a metronome, only because it was what I was told (still learning and studying!) that was what was required to learn to feel the subdivisions, hence at some point learn to groove around the ‘perfect’ clicks. It has shown me to some extent how to play behind or just ahead of the ‘perfect’ click.
Your explanation of ‘groove’ is right on! You respect the origins therein. You posit very good examples to prove your point.
I feel that this should be required reading for any musical group situation/interaction. The guys in our trio will…read and hopefully get this.
You are a ‘funky’ cat…practice what you preached.
Yeah, ‘body’ or ‘african’ time is where it’s at! Jah bless…
Gruv On!
I don’t know about that. I’m not sure I agree with your ideas. I’ll just agree to disagree. Thanks…for the post.
You play metal which doesn’t groove so I’m not sure how you can really judge…
Your site is awesome. I m gonna read more, thanks. Continue doing on it.
Great post.
Metronomes are screwing up they rhythm of a lot of people and have done so for many years.
Check out the wikipedia page of the metronome, for some nice historical perspective!
Note also that there are many styles of music that only the very best jazz drummers can handle. These are styles where there is no “conventional” underlying drum-rhythm, but rather, the rhythm is based on the melody and “musical phrasing”:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_phrasing
JJ
I finally got around to checking out the WIKI page, thank you!
AR
Hello Adam,
Yes, yes and yes.
But here’s the question :
Why specifically *avoid* the metronome?
Isn’t it just another practice tool?
Marc-A
Here’s why to avoid it. Grooves have many little microscopic musical decisions where things speed up and slow down. By going with a machine, you take your instinct off finding the magic.
Go ahead – take the funkiest recordings you can find, Stevie Wonder, J5, Michael Jackson – and put a metronome on. They won’t stay together. So, perfect time and perfect groove are in different universes completely.
If you hear a groove and think it is perfect time, it is an illusion. And, I think no new “computer based” music has a groove anywhere near a great musician actually playing.
You need to experience this inside, so 2 people can’t argue about this. The reality needs to be in YOU. Words from my mouth to your head have nothing to do with it at all.
I would need to see you dance and see if your body knows groove – because if you are not a groover, but a thinker – then the metronome will make more sense “logically”.
– Adam
Electronic music is slowly getting better, a lot of newer tracks have an unquantised ‘klunky’ feel to them that makes it sound a bit more ‘organic’ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sk0uDbM5lc
Yes – I agree 100% Thank you!
Hey Adam! Funny you mention dance. My daughter is a champion west coast swing dancer that has selected your version of “Ain’t No Sunshine” to compete with. It has just the soul, musicality, and variety that she and her partner need to complement their dancing. Check her out on You Tube: Jen DeLuca Arjay. Dance/music are inextricably linked!
Wow, that’s cool! The CD version? I plan to do another version with better sound….please send me a link.
I am watching her now – she’s awesome!
Adam
Hey,
My one question about this post would be: how can you make something groove if it’s out of time?
I mean, sure a metronome doesn’t teach you groove- but it’s not supposed to! A metronome is there for the count (1, 2, 3, 4 etc,) and without any kind of count there’ll be no groove at all!
Also, a metronome will prevent you simply slowing down for the difficult parts of a song and speeding up the easy parts! So therefore it’s an invaluable PRACTISE tool!
Where you take the beat from there is up to you, but without a sense of time you’ll be lost…
Of course you need time. But that’s natural to a human being. You think all the groove masters of Africa and elsewhere over the last hundreds of years before metronomes had bad time?
Well why not do what they did?
Again, I urge you – get a metronome out and play older Michael Jackson, Stevie Wonder, Count Basie and Earth Wind and Fire. Try to get the metronome to stay with teh music. Watch in amazement and delight as the music and metronome do not agree.
I’m done on this topic – gotta go practice 🙂
– AR
The problem is that nowadays there are so many people who’ve been brainwashed into playing with a metronome; that more often than not, you can probably set a metronome to the performance, and will see that they actually agree. What we need to realize, is that these are sub-level mediocre performances!
So about metronomes… There’s an enormous amount of disinformation out there.
Take it from Jeff Berlin who talks about guys who say “practice with a metronome because it’ll help your time.” and them mentions about them: “It’s those guys that are screwing up a whole generation of kids.”
I bloody-well agree!
https://www.innerviews.org/inner/berlin.html
That’s right, JJ – they are screwing up a generation of kids. Before music schools were the rage (Berklee, 70s etc) if you couldn’t swng you lost the gig.
No coddling.
Now however, the schools want to keep the students so they say “her little Johhny, you can get better with the metronome”.
Old school would have been a kick in the a–. I know because I have been on bands and seen old guys do that to young guys and yes- almost give them nervous breakdowns.
Metronomes help the schools democratize rhythm and not “expose” the ones with lack of rhythmic talent.
The truth and yes it will hurt some!
Agree, but only to a certain extent.
There no such thing as lack of rhythmic talent***.
Everyone can learn to groove!
BUT it requires something: spirituallity! (for lack of a better word)
Only someone who regards art in its proper context, i.e. spiritually, can learn to make other people feel. And that’s what music is about: projecting your HUMAN self!
But if you are unspiritual, and use a metronome, then that’s what you’ll project: cold, sterile, meaningless adhesion to cold facts.
And no-one is gonna wanna hear it – those guys will lose a gig – for sure.
*** though there is lack of spirituality!
When we (or Jeff Berlin…) say, that people who recommend a metronome are “screwing up a whole generation of kids”; then what is meant is that these people are taking and hindering the spirituality and personality of these kids!
It means that they stick a metronome in front of the kids, and require of them to adhere (not to their own feeling and perception, but to) to cold, dead clockbeats of modern society.
This is one of the most disgusting things, that I’ve ever come across; but it’s happening everywhere.
It’s time we start to recognize that we need to nurture people’s hearts; and not make them conform to a modernist society and its expectations.
Regards from a guitarplayer from Vienna! 🙂
I couldn’t agree more! It’s all about FEELING it and not MENTALLY caputuring it! After years of formal piano and guitar lessons, which failed.. I finally discovered in my mid 50’s what was so easy all along.. Just play on your body what feels natural.. do the same with hand drums.. and you will naturally fill in with your own groove, what sounds great. It doesn’t matter and in fact, the opposite.. the music is enhanced by your use of offbeats, fills, etc that are natural! And it is very spiritually based.. I think of shamanic music.. 🙂
Karen send me a Shamanic music link pls!
I think using a metronome is very important in the beginning. So many people go on and on about metronomes making your playing mechanical and groove-less. It’s not true.
A metronome is a great practice tool that helps in developing good muscle memory in the shortest time possible by forcing you to play at a slow and consistent tempo.
I have and always will recommend to my students that they use a metronome when they practice. Obviously you need to maintain some balance and play along with real songs or real musicians to help develop your own groove but that’s not to say a metronome should not be used.
Interesting discussion. As a songwriter I write from what’s in me. But because I don’t have the playing skill, I usually work with other musicians to get the best out of my songs. I have found over and over again that the ones who know theory can often bring something that others can’t. I wonder how many modern bands have depended on others once they get in the studio to flesh out their material? Probably most- it’s the one’s who know theory that help those who don’t to appear talented!
It’s the same with tempo. I can sit down, play my guitar, and I’m always speeding up and slowing down as I play. It’s part of the joy of expressing myself through song. But there’s nothing worse than trying to perform with a drummer or a guitar player that’s always rushing. It would probably do them a world of good to practice with a nome. It’s called PRACTICE. You can always turn it off and just play from your heart- it won’t steal your soul- but it might help you to be able to play consistently enough that others find it enjoyable to play along with you.
Mike
Thanks. Rushing or slowing is usually due to single accent being off in someones musical concept.
Just the other day I showed a guitar player when playing swing to play a DOWN stroke on the + of 2 and 4. Even though it is an upbeat.
Ok – it seems small, but added up over a whole song, it’s like steering 1% in one direction everytime you do it – and steering 1% in the opposite direction if you don’t.
Doing what I described will create a pocket that feels good to my body. Not doing it makes things feel rushy.
You see- this will never be corrected by a clock on the outside – only a concept shift inside, since it is an itty bitty direction.
I will say this – in preparing for my last CD I practiced SLOW and that made what many would perceive as “metronome” time sound steadier. Slow practice is very important.
Thanks again!
Adam
Hi, I play mostly classical piano pieces on the piano, and I’m having a terrible time with using a metronome. I can’t get my beats to agree with the metronome at all, but my music teacher will swear by the good virtues of a metronome. My question was this:
What is the African rhythm and could you explain the technicalities of that more fully please?
And also, could I apply African rhythm to a classical piano piece by Beethoven?
And the last question was do you believe that a metronome should be used in piano practice? Thank you so much!
This is very interesting. Got me thinking. I have an open mind on this, but what I will say is that when I spent some time in the past playing handdrums a lot, and working on syncopation and stuff on them (getting the left hand to play 1-3 … and the right to play things like latin clave and other stuff) … it helped my playing move on a lot. I had used metronome a lot before that, and my playing had become rhythmically boring. It helped a great deal.
At the moment the issue I am working on is that when I play swing (or other styles) at medium tempos I can play with lots of rhythmic freedom and things seem to “flow”. At higher tempos, I have the feeling of almost being constrained by the time, and it shows in what I play. I have been trying to deal with this by using the nome but maybe that is not the answer.
you gotta keep an open mind and try different things … 🙂
Nice post Adam, thanks. Great version of superstition too.
D
Been thinking more about this. You can look at it two ways.
Clearly there are plenty of records out there that do not have “metronome time”, but still have great groove.
Are there records that were recorded to a click (and so have metronome time) – and also have great groove?
Well, I can’t name any, but … probably.
The point is to play in time with the other musicians. If the band speeds or slows a bit – just be there with it. Or if they don’t … the same.
I don’t think using a met actually *harms* you in trying to achieve this …
I agree on one hand and completely disagree on the other.
A metronome is a great tool in developing your personal memory for a song without accompaniment. I believe a metronome is invaluable when trying to develop your own voice (especially as a bass player).
There are a host of players out there who are completely dependent on the cues of others to remember parts. Those are the players who interrupt the grooves the most when playing because they have not taken ownership of the song in any relevant way. Those are the players who will acknowledge in their minds that they have “made a mistake” rather than quickly assess the non-orthodox way in which they have stated something and adjust to that new dynamic that most of them are unaware that they have made in the first place.
Playing a song from beginning to end, alone, with a metronome is one of the most helpful exercises in developing a line that quote “sounds like that tune” with an easy reference happening in the background that is always moving forward. It helps to keep a focus on the song continuing rather than starting and stopping and being able to act on the “fly” in a coherent way.
On the other hand…If you are playing with a band you had better have the interdependency to break free from the metronome dynamic and participate. Time never has to be “perfect” in a band situation. It only has to feel right.
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Agreed 100%. Music aint just notes and beats!
Vince – check out my latest post, I bet you’ll dig it!
https://adamrafferty.me/2013/02/04/rhythm-pitch-and-your-musical-soul/
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Thanks a lot!
Hi Adam,
I think you are right and wrong in this. A lot of guitarists come to learning music “backward” , myself included. Tab, chords, copying licks etc. come first and then eventually realize the importance of learning standard notation and the brilliance of classical music—which forces you to learn the discipline of reading and timing. Metronome work opened up those tunes for me by getting a sense of the beat. There are a lot of paths to achieve similar results, but learning to accurately count is pretty valuable if you are going to play with others. That internal sense of rhythm exists but finding it is a complicated path.
Adam, you are a great player and your method has worked for you. And I totally agree that “body rhythm” is crucial. However, I have used metronomes all my life and find them extremely useful. But we as players have to realize the difference between EXTERNAL time and INTERNAL time. The metronome is external, and although it can help tighten up your playing, if you don’t also turn it off and play to your own foot tapping or even better, whole body swaying, (like Adam! I saw your advice on this in one of your videos and it was a revelation, thanks!) you will not be fully developing your internal clock.
And you could even go further in developing your internal clock by playing some foot percussion while playing guitar. I have lately been using a stomp-bass which is basically a pad with a pickup, similar to a kick drum sound and used by a lot of blues players. If you want to really challenge yourself put a tambourine or shaker on your other foot!
Let me finish by saying that even if you don’t often practice with a metronome, you should be able to do it. And you can play with different aspects like playing ahead of the beat, behind the beat, or having the click on beats 2 and 4 instead of 1 and 3. It can also help you with passages that you are having trouble with, by slowing it down and then gradually playing it faster until you can do it at the desired tempo. Just remember that it is still an EXTERNAL clock!
Thank you!
Very ,very ,good point here. I dont remember the last time i use a metronome , i have used very ,very few times the metronome , i have played with a lot of backing tracks with a very,very good groove.
But my son , 11 years old , is in the conservatory and hie teacher has said to him that he must practice with the metronome,because he is learning yet , Piano , and also a friend of mine who played with Paco de Lucia , ” Antonio serrano” has said to me he uses the metronome the practice the “falsetas” that Paco record for him,to play with him . ANd Also i have seen that TE , has said to the people that he plays a lot with a digital metronome,i think a “Korg” one that is also a tunner.
Thank fro your advices ,always, Carlos Camarasa , Jazzoul , camarasaurus ,camarasaurio, and i use FB a lot.
Excuse me my Fake english , with a lot of ortographic fails,but today i have to do a lot of things,and i write in the keyboard by “EAR” , and i try to do my best.
Thank you Adam.
I don’t agree with the logic of this. Consider this: Wes Montgomery was groovy and didn’t use a metrone, therefore the metronome is evil. Now this: I am not groovy and I don’t use a metronome, therefore the metronome is good. This type of Aristotlean logic was abandoned 150 years ago.
The fact that perfect time isn’t a prerequisite of groove, that in fact they don’t even relate; I will buy as much. But from there to saying that they are adversaries, there is a long jump. I remember many old jazz musicians using the same argument against reading music. Schooled musicians where bad at jazz, they said. The fact of the matter is, that many schooled musicians propably just didn’t “get” jazz but made the attempt anyway – something the unschooled “not-getters” never had the opportunity to. Thus, the schooling wasn’t the cause, just happenstance correlation.
Having to follow a conductor you need to be able let him induce the groove and abandon your own. And following a conductor is an absolute requirement in many setups – either because the music calls for it, as with classical, or because the bands are so big/noisy that the individual musician can only hear a minute part of the big picture.
If I owned a metronome, I would use it when I want to concentrate on something else than stringent timing, and leave it off when I don’t. Being a slave of it is like being a slave of anything – an entirely different discussion.
I would, by the way, love to have one of those old mahogany/brass clockwork action metronomes. They simply look wonderful.
Thomas, not enough room to explain here but using a metronome is a 2 dimensional solution to a 3 dimensional problem – check out Mike Longos Jazz Rhythm DVDs it will bow your mind.
what an embarrassing response to a perfectly valid and thought-out comment
Sorry if you think I embarrassed myself. Words end up being meaningless when the downbeat of a song hits and a groove is required. Thoughts and concepts won’t bail you out at this point. My “comment” is the article itself.
I repeat, practicing with the metronome is an attempt with a 2-dimensional solution to solve a 3-dimensional problem. The African time concept is based on entirely different physics than what you could possible get with playing along with a click. You can play with the click perfectly and still be way off mark groove wise.
In fact, the effort to stay along with the click has ruined many peoples groove and confidence. Once I take students off metronomes and onto the African drum their playing usually improves 1000%
Made me think of this great way to talk about that rythm and groove thing. With no opposition between metronome and groove …
https://youtu.be/QkWP5yvkcqA
…groove uber alles/no groove = no one enjoying the music
that said, there is a place for theory just as there is a time and place for emotion and a time and place for cognition in life. One without the other usually doesn’t work (unless a novelty like industrial techno); if unbalanced it usually doesn’t work. IMost music is heart over head, but don’ throw the head out… some really interesting things there that are counterintuitive; they cannot be had by pure rhythmic means)……… if you know how to use them.
the metronome is like training wheels…….useful in the beginning, but it ain’t bike riding….
Rich
Nice post Adam,
Just had a mini disagreement with Richard Smith about this. Also Tommy E says use a metronome as well. But I have been playing for 45 years and as much as I love those two guys playing I just don’t like metronomes. But then I really don’t like the sound of most recordings after 1975. I think that’s because everything started to get to perfect. sterile and cold. It’s got to have a bit of looseness. Slight movement in time makes it human. Thanks for this post.
Bryan Harrell
When Rand found his groove…
Love, love, love this! As a 60 y.o. intermediate guitar player I have a hard time keeping up with my sessionmates techniques, fret, and chord knowledge. I’m almost always looked up to as the “go to” guy however, and most revered (in our small marginally talented circle), because of my groove and better use of space/less notes.
I played rock and jazz drums from age 13 to 30. One summer while in college I studied with a drummer from our community symphony. He had me work stick control with complex rythms on the metronome for two hours daily (practice pad and snare only), and said not to bother with metronome while on the kit. I gigged or practiced with the band most nights, as I had the last year or so. My sense of timing and ability to “drive” the band hugely improved over that summer. I believe that in my case, under those circumstances, that was the summer I found my groove! Perhaps my work with the metronome enabled me to relax at the kit and be more confident that my straying groove would more innately return to the right place/beat. I didn’t enjoy the metronome, but I did benefit from it.
Thank you Adam. I love your work and your willingness to give of your self so freely. You are a great mentor!
Sry Adam but you said that you never played with a Metronome. So please dont tell us about it. it can help Musicians in different ways. but i think Metronomes are actually bad constructed! They need much more “feeling” clicks.
my Statement for musicians is: Learn to play to the Metronome in different Tempi and then you can trow it away to find your own rythm + feeling!
Best Wishes for you Adam and thks for your great Website!
Sry for my Germish + greetings from Hamburg.
Hmmm. I agree… and disagree. I’ve been playing music for 30+ years (guitar, bass, drums, trumpet), and I find that the best musicians I’ve worked with are those that have had both “groove” training AND classical, metronomic training. I totally 100% agree it’s important to find your own groove, and dancing has helped immensely with that. Good tip there! When I mentor teenage rock bands, the first thing I tell them is that you HAVE to move, you HAVE to show your band-mates (and crowd!) that you are feeling the music – and HOW you are feeling the music, they can pick up on all those tiny little beats and sub-beats that are not easy to explain or diagram. Much more importantly: moving while you play makes the music you play sooooo much better.
But! What do you tell a band that constantly speeds up EVERY song they play and wind up at 130 BPM? Who, in a practice setting, are all pulling in different directions because they each feel something different because they’re not tapping their collective feet, and who wind up landing on the downbeat differently? Yes, a good drummer should be able to solve that, I agree, but you’re talking about teenagers here!
I like what one user said about not liking any album after 1975 because they lack the groove and “loose-ness” of things that came before. There’s some real truth to that! But I’m also amazed at how many tracks from bands back then sound so sloppy…. And yes, there’s something from African and Latin rhythms that Bach, in all its metronomic glory, cannot teach you, or even convey to you as a listener. But Bach, too, can still teach you something about tapping your foot and finding a groove in a much less syncopated/more metronomic (aka “sterile”) environment. A lot of beginning students NEED Bach before they find Earth Wind and Fire.
Anyway, for me, I had mentors and teachers that forced me to use a metronome and diagramed out what the beat was doing, and what “playing behind” or “in front of” the beat meant, or “pushing” the beat. Those were all very, very important conversations to me because, yes, I could feel the grooves, but could not make sense of using them consistently. Worse, I couldn’t relate to what/how other people were using them. For me, using a metronome – though cold and sterile in many regards – got me to pay attention to how mercurial MY playing was; how it sped up or slowed down due to my emotions (anger, tired, hungry, etc.). Now, instead of someone else telling me, “Hey man, you’re slowing down!” and then me saying, “No I’m not – YOU’RE speeding up!” I finally had an unbiased opinion on what was really happening, and that truth hurt, but it was the truth, and that really helped me figure out what was really going on.
IMHO: Using a metronome STILL helps immensely for recording or playing live when you’re nervous/angry/tired, etc. Then again… I would also argue that it’s precisely all of that emotion you need to put into your music, which is what makes it all unique and different and shakes things up so that it’s not too robotic. So, final word: use a metronome to find it and refine it, but feel it too!
George, thank you. I bet all the classical geniuses like Bach were groovers. If we heard them, we’d be tapping our toes, no doubt!
“[…] groovers. If we heard them, we’d be tapping our toes, no doubt!”
Just a comment: you cannot tap your toe to everything! Only metronome clicktrack-swinging people tap their toes and feet to everything, and think that that is what makes music good.
If you can tap your toes/feet to Bach, then you almost certainly know that your listening to a brainwashed zombie-player who thinks that Bach needs 20th century groove. Very very horrible. Don’t go there.
Bach needs so much soul, that it should move you to tears…
But today, it’s unfortunately just a degraded toe-tapping affair…
Calling Bach a “groover” is insulting and wrong.
Tell me: How do you play a ballade, Adam? With toe-tapping groove, or with lyrical phrasing from the heart?
Man, are you kidding that calling Bach a groover is wrong? Every account of people who saw him play reported his body rhythm as perfect, flowing with the music, not jerking away from pulse. Being a groover is achieving the absolute highest level of rhthym one can have, a perfect melding of melody & rhythm, body and mind.
It is complimentary and correct – not insulting and wrong. Maybe you took the word groover too lightly.
Dizzy Gillespie, Charlie Parker, Wes Montgomery, Mozart, Beethoven, Bach were all groovers. Perfect melding of melody & harmony and rhythm.
Regarding ballads, there can be a deep pulse, ususally with a 12/8 as a basis, on top of which melodic flow happens. You can have a wide 1/2 note triplet, and also know where the perfect off beat is. Lyrical slow melodies can live & sit perfectly withing the rhythm.
Dear Adam,
I really enjoy how you are critical of the metronome. Quite rare for people playing “popular music” today.
For you it’s all about the groove!
Great and fine.
As an old opera connoisseur, I unfortunately cannot stand it when the 20th century word “groove” is misapplied to very different styles of music.
Take Bellini’s “Casta Diva” from Norma, as an example.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On2SmLEyWiw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XilClJLBqBo
“Groove” is not a silver bullet that can be haphazardly applied everywhere.
To me, that’s like a teenager saying that everything is “cool”. Example: “Oh my Grandma’s funeral: that was so cool”. When actually what was meant is “Oh my Grandma’s funeral was an event, that really touched me in a deep-felt melancholy way.”
In earlier historic styles of music, the word “groove” did not exist. But they had words such as “lyrical”, “declamation”, “phrasing”, “expressive”, “touching”, etc. etc.
Here are some historic opinions on the metronome:
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Metronome
In any case, I’m not here to argue with you about syntax and semantics.
Just accept my congratulations, on not being like the millions of other musicians who think the metronome is somehow important (submitting themselves to this machine, and killing their intuition and feeling).
Thanks Mike. Yes, semantics – I am used to how jazz musicians communicate. It’s actually comical how what we say might classical musicians cringe, yet it is the absolute highest compliment available. It’s a kind of “ghetto speak”….
“Bad” below means “good, slick, incredible, beyond normal human capability” – it’s a superlative….
“Mozart and Bach were the baddest Mother F—-rs of all time.”
“Man have you ever heard Beethovens 9th? Can you believe he wrote some s—t like that? It’s BAD! It’s the s—t!”
The awe is expressed like that. Pretty ghetto, I know.
Add to this…
In solfeggio class I would sing examples with “scat syllables” – not as a mockery, but it’s just how I heard the phrasing & rhythm meld with the pitch values. My classical musician schoolmates would laugh at me thinking I was doing comedy, but I wasn’t. In fact, I think the typical “ta ta ta” solfeggio often does not show where the rhythm in the phrasing is precisely enough.
Please don’t be put off by my angle and background – none of it is to belittle or make a mockery at all…and thanks for your support in my organic approach!
Unfortunately the way most of today’s musicians play Bach, Beethoven, Bellini, etc. makes the music disgusting.
Some hammer it out as if it is jazz, most hammer it out metronomically, both of which is wrong.
I’m laughing at “Every account of people who saw him [Bach] play reported his body rhythm as perfect, flowing with the music, not jerking away from pulse.”
Making up ridiculous sentences, doesn’t do your playing justice. You really have no need in stooping so low, as to try and make me believe you know anything about interpreting Bach, or Bach as a person. Stick with honest things you know about (Jazz ‘n all that).
Mike, well man I got that sentence out of “The Bach Reader” – a book of letters, accounts of people, students, etc who saw & knew him. Also many reports of how he fixed & maintained church organs. Check it out a sentence regarding the body rhythm is in the book, I did not make it up. – AR
Regarding the stange usage of “Bad” and “ghetto speak”. Well maby it’s a superlative to some people.
To others it might just be a a limited monodimensional vocabulary used by people who are not fully able to express themselves.
Everything is monodimensionalized into one and the same compartment: the “bad” compartment. Quite idiotic.
Similar to people who are not able to express anything in music. Or those who think that “body rhythm” is applicable everywhere.
Compartmentalized thinking.
If you have never used the word bad as in “that cat is bad” then you have not hung out with a lot of jazz musicians. That may be why our concept of time & groove is different. Please send me some of your music, I’d like to hear what you do. – AR
Mike
Adam here – I reread out thread, and I have also been listening to some Beethoven the past few days. It all had me thinking…
I certainly don’t know much about classical music, certainly not as much as you!
I studied my 4 part harmony and counterpoint, played some Bach on the guitar (slowly) and have studied smaller pieces – but never really gone deep into the soul of the performance of classical, and certainly not opera.
I have written 4 fugues, 3 inventions and a handful of chorale harmonizations at a good student level. It has totally informed the way I arrange for solo guitar.
I stand in awe of the great composers – and while I have a some working knowledge of the construction of music, (I had straight A’s in theory in college, super relationships with the professors) I can say nothing informed about classical performance – of that, I know zero.
My experience and entire upbringing was in NYC -and as a maturing musician I was a jazz apprentice. I have played, studied and recorded with many of the best jazz musicians in the world, and learned from them about how the rhythm of jazz should feel – according to them, many of whom played with Oscar Peterson, Dizzy Gilespie and others.
For any of us who have been steeped in a musical style for years, we experience life changing moments, have realizations and get an idea of “what music is” – which of course is relative to the style we are listening to & the culture we are in.
Arguing about musical performance is akin to people from different cultures arguing about the right way to praise God. Some ideas bleed across cultural boundaries, others do not.
No harm meant, and no disrespect meant.
On the new website (Study With Adam), I will be distributing a PDF debunking the slowing down / speeding up myth. The problem is not slow / fast – it’s concept….a little too much to write about here…
Excellent article (still after all these years). I share your view entirely and often find myself throwing your article around so “I” don’t have to keep making the argument- I just say, “here, check this out”. Thanks!
Great article (even after all these years). I agree completely and I throw your article around when the gnome bangers shout me down. Thanks for stating things clearly, eloquently and unequivocally.
Mark thanks! Sorry for the late approval of your comment! – AR
I think you overlook the university of time signatures in western system. It’s kinda obvious for any more experienced musician to expect that pure 3/4 and 4/4 will be boring after time. This music may not be your cup of tea, but I urge you to check a band called Meshuggah – and tell me they’re not damn groovy. And they actually write most of their grooves in 4/4, while shifting accents all around meters.
Point I’m going for is that’s why we have time signatures, going from 9/8 to 4/4 then 13/16, because why not? Problem is almost everyone’s using the same rhythmic patterns and time signatures. Groovy doesn’t mean that it mustn’t be mathematically perfect. But on the other hand it requires actual technical effort of the musician to have his chops tight.
As a metal guitar player who needs to fit with very note orders in time signatures, I cannot agree with your premise. Maybe it could fit into less technical genres, as your argument relies mostly on African grooves – and while it’s entirely subjective, for me personally it’s not the most technical music.
Now don’t get me wrong, it’s not all about shredding, arpeggios and 32th note sixtuplets, but if you’re including this element in your music, then it’s important to be constant and reliable.
You cannot groove, if you adhere to an external non-human mechanical digital click-device.
My recommendation for people who think click-devices have worth, is to get a job at a manufacturing-assembly line. And marry a robot. And make jagged twitching robotic movements. And always bounce your foot rhythmically strictly (“like a dumbass”), esp. during ballades: and then complain to the ballade-musician that the performance was not rhythmically strict enough.
All cultures have different “groves” like we have different languages. We can learn and appreciate from all of them. The metronome is as Adam states is an external clock and as others have stated perhaps useful in certain circumstances such as in a group setting when there is conflict in the timing/groove among the players. It becomes more apparent in group settings because many non-professionals and novices usually start off playing alone and have not developed the idea being a good listener when playing with others. If they can’t “listen” of feel the music they may not be able to also hear the metronome. In the group I jam with our playing seems stale and too straight (sterile). It does not necessarily lack timing but it lacks the groove for the most part. Not sure what would help. In another group of guys I play with there is heart and energy and thus groove so I do enjoy exploring music there. We sometimes claim we are brothers from different mothers. I prefer to try to meld my internal clock with another’s internal clock rather then rely on the metronome to bring us together. It works when we “listen” to each other and make adjustments as needed. It fails when one of us get to far into one’s self.While typing this I am watching Adam play a variety of songs on YT. Great music! Groovy!
Oh Adam, you are such a great player and sometimes a very good teacher but I just cannot agree with you on this one and actually feel what you have said is not helpful but actually even harmful. It appears to reek of arrogance, (actually perhaps you are smarter than this and are just using controversy to draw people to you website) How about using humility and understanding ? Some students need help, no not in grooving, but counting out the beats so that they can understand the intricacies of what to beginning students are difficult rhythmic concepts, like three against two and other subdivisions of beats. I have been playing music for over 50 years and yes I NEVER used a metronome until recently, because I too was of this false impression that it would hinder not help me. How wrong I was. A few years ago I was struggling with the classical and flamenco tremolo techniques, using a metronome really helped me. I had spent most of my life playing by feel and by ear and yet when it came to reading standard notation the metronome really help me translate the written notes of rhythmic concepts that actually I already knew, but not intellectually.
Your good mate and great guitarist Tommy Emmanual uses a metronome to this day, he says he uses it to check his 1/2 and double time meter, you can find it on the Youtube in an interview with Premier Guitars.
Mile Davis also used drum machines on “The Rubber Band sessions” and on his album TUTU. Here is a quote:
“Marcus Miller, the main player and writer of the music on the album, had also hit the target. The foil he created for Miles to cast his trumpet spell over consists of complex orchestral-sounding arrangements performed largely on synthesizers and drum machines”
To paraphrase him he once said that drum machines liberated the drummer from having to keep time.
How can you comment on the use of metronomes if you have NEVER used one?
It is a bit like saying “when I write music I don’t need an eraser” Mozart apparently didn’t, but Beethoven certainly did and he used them to redo or correct mistakes to the point that he wore holes in his manuscripts
You are absolutely right about your internal clock and what you describe as African rhythmic understanding. I lived in North African for six years and learnt their rhythms from an old Gumbri player (the original African bass) he would have me hold a tape cassette case filled with chick peas between the fingers of my two hands, he would not let me hold it at any point it had to be always temporarily between my fingers or in the air. I had to metronomically with equal beats tap out an even pulse. I had to learn, from what I would later describe as the beat of 1, to put emphasis so that it was in twos, or threes and then later as multiple of twos and threes. In other words I had to keep a steady pulse but learn to play poly-rhythmically. Every time I started to mark out a time signature he would shout : ” you are marking time, stop it” I would be doing this while he played his Gumbri bass. Quite an education from a Master.
That was 40 years ago I started on a long quest to understand the subtleties and magic of African rhythm and to understand what was “feel and groove”. I was obsessed with it, I still am and hence why I am writing a response to your BAD advice, perhaps with good intentions and you make a point, but it is not Holistic and complete. African musicians learn to play by imitation from their peers, who are in a sense the metronomes. Young musicians in New York city can learn by playing with recordings, but faced with sheet music a metronome can really help, then they can discard it once they have learnt to read rhythms. correctly. Different strokes for different folks, some need an aid do some don’t
So I embarked on a voyage of discovery in the 80’s, using midi drum machines and sequencer software,( so yes in a sense I was already using a metronome) and a piece of hardware called a “Feel Factor” which allowed me to move individual midi events in a track by milliseconds. I analysed my playing and the playing of friends and later with digital audio the playing of “good” musicians. I was not alone, perhaps a pioneer at the time, but many others were also discovering the same thing, we now had the technology to analyse in this way. You Adan will have used a program like Sound Forge with wave forms and it’s ability to map notes by milliseconds, so you will know what I am talking about, likewise for midi sequencers.
This is what I discovered that good musicians keep a very even tempo, they have what I describe as immaculate timing, yes they do fluctuate, but usually at the beginning or end of a verse or chorus and even then very smoothly within a range of 10 milliseconds. Well this is the “feel factor” because our ears cannot hear the difference between two notes played 10 milliseconds, a chorus effect is usually set at about 20 milliseconds. When a musician is pushing the beat they play with a 10 millisecond pocket in front of the perceived pulse, when laying back they play with 10 millisecond behind the perceived beat (the bar line if you like) When they are slowing or accelerating they do it very smoothly in increments of a few milliseconds, 15 milliseconds and you are beginning to get sloppy.
Yes, MIDI and drum machines and brought us some, but not all, dreadful music, but do not be fooled. Many earlier recordings were recorded using a click track, often from the rim click of a snare drum, so many earlier recordings were not as “romantically” perfect as many believe. I always preferred and still do “Live” recordings, but there are many exceptions to the clinical approach STEELY DAN were masters at it.
One last point regarding Classical music. Rubato, often misunderstood as just speeding up and slowing down , it really is what it say’s on the tin. It is stolen time, that is what it means in Italian. This means that even if the music slows down it in one measure makes it up in the next bar. the actually pulse is even and constant, this is what creates the effect, otherwise it is just slowing down and speeding up something very different from true rubato. Go listen to classical pianist Daniel Barenboim play Moonlight Sonata another Master.
And finally a few years ago I discovered a program called Guitar Pro. It is like a metronome in that the pulse is set, actually to whatever speed you wish, but fixed. This program accelerated, not my learning as a grooving feeling musician, but in my ability to learn difficult pieces, mostly classical by light years.plus I have just been using a metronome to learn Tommy Emmanuals “Daytripper” actually not such a difficult piece but getting the bass line with a simple accompaniment was giving me trouble, a bit like learning to ride a bike, easy once you’ve got it. NO use metronomes when you need them they will help you enormously. Beethoven loved them and wrote a piece in honour of the inventor Mazel, but his main reason was he disliked vague Italian terms like Adagio and Andante, one persons walking pace is another persons, trot, he liked that a piece he had written was to be played at the correct tempo he had written it for. My take on that is music, is music and you can play it however you wish and what feels right for you, same goes for metronomes.
Peter thanks. Sorry if you think I am arrogant. I’m just giving the best advice I can based on my experience.
I think it’s cool that you were in Africa to check this stuff out!
Here goes.
There are 2 schools – some of us love the metronome, others don’t..
I have tried metronomes and all it does is take me away from my groove and core.
Once you can groove, you can play to a metronome the same way a juggler could time their juggling to a light show if they had to.
However, in time one’s orientation will go to the click (neck up, body cut off) then rather than a pulse, and what starts missing is depth of groove, a heartbeat (body). The musician playing may feel “I am great” but if that musician plays with a master – the master will likely hear a lack of depth.
Marking time is one thing, and a pulse is another.
As far as learning to groove, I think it is bad advice to use a metronome IMHO. It totally cuts the body rhythm away from the head. You’re better off dancing than practicing with a clicker.
I don’t care if TE says use it. I disagree. ( I bet he does it to stay slow and not let the tempo fly away from him.) He is legend, but I totally disagree on this point.
(By the way, after Tommy & I played “Isn’t She Lovely” live – he screamed with joy on stage and looked at me, and said “your 3 & 4 was perfectly locked up” right there on stage.)
This is based on personal positive experience playing with Alvin Queen, MIke Longo, Dr Lonnie Smith and countless jazz musicians in Harlem most of whom would never use a metronome and did not develop by using one.
For you…using slow click to learn a flamenco technique also is not “groove” – it’s fingers. You can’t dance to the slowed down technique, but it would in fact improve your technique. So yes, you slowed down and got some chops together.
I just practice technique with a slow groove when I need to. My time is not perfect, but if I slow things down, they come back evened out at tempo.
If something speeds up / slows down it means an “accent is off” in one’s groove concept. On guitar this means 3 things:
1) You have to feel the groove in your whole body and be able to really dance, i mean GET DOWN to it.
Can you dance? I mean if I put a James Brown record on – would you have the balls to go in the middle of a dance floor and show your stuff? I can do that and have done that. That depth does not live on a metronome, that’s body-rhythm.
2) The down / up strokes (or fingers) have to lay perfectly against that – which often flies in the face of conventional guitar technique.
3) Small tone is a problem. By making a thin sound, you don’t sink into the beat with each note and have to guess at where to place notes.
No musician is in a position to say “I have a good groove” because you can’t see your own eye or bite your teeth. You only know once you have been through the fire – what do the other musicians say, and what does the audience say? Who have you played with? That’s the answer – not what one says or thinks about themselves or their progress.
Here’s more on the topic from my Mentor Mike:
https://www.mikelongojazz.com/should-you-practice-jazz-with-a-metronome/
Dogmatically Yours,
Adam
Alvin Queen Interview:
https://www.allaboutjazz.com/alvin-queen-the-move-the-groove-and-the-beat-alvin-queen-by-maxwell-chandler.php?&pg=2
This is pretty interesting, from the perspective of a drummer. As a drummer you’ll hear a lot about how the single most important thing for you to do and be, is to be the human metronome for the other musicians to follow. That advice used to rub me the wrong way because although I see the point they’re trying to make (since we technically do lay the foundation for the song as the rhythm section) I don’t like the idea of being a human metronome. Added effect is if you ask drummers what is a good drummer or what makes a good drummer most of the time the answer will be good time and then good groove. So I do see the merits of what you’re saying but from the sound of this conversation though it seems to come from a place that’s way above my skill level, even when were talking about two different instuments so based on that I wouldn’t feel comfortable giving up my metronome, lol but it does inspire me to worry about my timing less. I actually found this article because I was frustrated with my timing and tightness and was googling ways to improve them.
This type of use of a metronome practice ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8Yh8dQZrY8 ) is almost a musical way to approach it to force your mind to think in music terms so its not so robotic.
And also this video of Tony Royster Jr. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yh8PATuI_NU ) seems to be a good middle ground, to me atleast. To be able to play to a metronome while also being able to play WITH it like a toy. To go wherever you want to but to be able to come back to it at will. Actually rewatching this video it almost seems to me you’re both going for the same thing in different ways. The end goal in both is being loose, relaxed and feeling the pulse without needing to follow an outward metronome. These are two of my favorite drummers and they both use metronomes and it hasn’t hindered their groove. ex. — https://youtu.be/K1E_y_jgM5A
Great topic and thread. I’ve always felt the metronome was a little limited. However, I was taught a pretty old hack that let me control the groove and still use the metronome. All we did was make the click the back beat. That way, the musician was responsible for placing the downbeat and the metronome would, in effect, become another instrument. If you were grooving, the metronome would also sound as if it were grooving! Your choice of where you wanted to place the the downbeat could make the metronome swing, sound funky, or do that baroque swing thing implicit in that style.
Seriously, this technique puts you in the driver’s seat, the metronome can only help you so much when used this way. This method really forces you to find your groove and stick to it. You’ll learn how to stretch phrase, alter feel, become sensitive to the delicate changes that result in entirely new grooves.
Adam, really interested in African Rhythms. Any suggestions for my personal study. I’m really into West African stuff, but also get down with northern stuff too, but I never really delved into the nuts and bolts.
Adam, I think what we’re talking about here is entropy. It is built into the universe and everything in it. Groove should contain some element of entropy within. In other words, the music needs to breath. I love how you describe the “now” moment. The parallels with physics are numerous.
I get what you’re saying even if I think you’re dead wrong. I never practiced with a metronome either until I started playing classical guitar. I’ve been playing for nearly 30 years, and I can say without exaggeration or hubris that I am a far, far better guitarist as a result. Not only did practicing with a metronome help me understand time signatures, but I had had difficulty in the past keeping up with a drummer, and practicing with a metronome made me a better player (and incidentally, a lot less frustrated drummers) for having done it.
When you’re playing with a percussionist, there is a very good chance he or she has a much better sense of rhythm than you, as a guitarist. Not to say you do not have some innate sense of it – my father was a professional musician his entire life (who also knew Tommy Emmanuel, as it happens), so I get it honestly, but when my drummer tells me I’m going off beat, I just tend to listen to him. I mean, I’ve read several books on psychology, studied that and several other social sciences in college, but I don’t question something my friend’s dad – who taught psychology for more than 35 years – tells me is fact. I don’t feel the need to challenge him on it, or even research it myself. He is clearly the expert in that situation, and it behooves me to take him at his word….not to mention, I save time and learn something as well.
All that to say – I understand where you’re coming from. But having practiced with a metronome hasn’t taken any of my “groove” away from my playing. Indeed, I was just working on a jazz piece when I ran across this article…in search of a metronome with a few more bells and whistles than the standard tick-tock kind. Sure, there are plenty of guitar pieces (and music pieces in general) that are not necessarily ideal for practicing with a metronome, but I would have to say that in my not-so-inconsiderable experience, it certainly can’t hurt, and will likely help. And I have to agree with Peter John Bailey when he says that your advice is potentially harmful. You might sway someone who – like me – was just a smidge off on her rhythm, and perhaps cost her an otherwise deserved spot in a band, ensemble, etc.
Tommy Emmanuel is pro metronome and the results are very good! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lbvSBNLLoo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvpkYPaWKrM&nohtml5=False
“Don’t think. Feel.” ~ Bruce Lee
He was a martial arts master.. But..
This applies for when I sit down behind a kit or pick up guitar.
Music is a means to capture feeling. Metronomes intent are to capture “perfect” time. Has its place within recording, if that’s your thing. I prefer to capture more than “perfect” time.
Music is an art form to me. Therefore it is subjective. The rules are based upon opinion alone. Therefore, they are all controversial. As this post shows!
Play music and be happy, friends 🙂
The Faroese ring dance, which originally came from a french medieval court dance, is also in 12/8. I suspect you would find it all over the place if you looked at truly unnafected, older folk music. Also, lots of baroque music is supposed to have been in swing time or shuffle time. I’m guessing that this natural rhythm fell away with the advent of the romantic period in music, where the sonata form also got pushed away. I remember Fürtwängler – my favourite conductor – talking about how said it was that romanticism had made it so that almost no one seemed to be connected to the laws of musical nature anymore, because the sudden reverance for “the composers intention” had robbed the musicians of any agency (I’m paraphrasing: he had very, extremely long sentences to describe very subtle convoluted concepts, and I would need a degree in translating to do it justice). and from what I’ve read on historically correct performance practice, we trulz have no idea how anything was performed, because sheet music, when there was any, where just guidelines back then, not dogma. Classical musicians where closer to what we today understand a jazz musician to be. Basically, it’s like if people 200 years from now where to try to reconstruct jazz music performance with nothing else to go on except The Jazz Fake Book. It would be in non-swing 4/4 time, and the musicians would probably just take turns playing the melody with academically approved flourishes
I understand and agree with what you said about the groove and that time should breathe. But I play in a band and the fiddle player rushes. I would like to tell him to buy a metronome and play 16th notes against it.
Personally, I use a metronome a lot. I have found the one that subdivides is particularly useful for moving the bow faster. I play acoustic bass and was having trouble playing orchestral parts up to speed.
It came as a real AH HAH moment when I loaded a metronome program to my tablet which beat 16th note subdivisions against quarter notes. I found that I was moving the bow faster with shorter strokes.
But I liked your advice about dancing. I lover reading your posts and your readers’ posts.
Keep up the good work.
Very cool, Adam. I’m a big fan of Mike Longo too. You’re so lucky to have studied with this great teacher. It’s funny but I listened to you playing Misty on June 16th which is Errol Garner’s birthday. I think he would be pleased.
I’m going to spend the rest of the night trying to find that groove.
Thank God the world is not without Good and Helpful people! You shed a light and proved me that I’m right! God bless you Adam!
Thank God the World is not without Good and Helpful people! You shed a light and proved me that i’m right!
God bless you Adam! Don’t pay attention to these plastic folks, they don’t feel music how we feel. What comes from the heart, goes to the heart.
well, i tried teaching myself guitar using videos and got absolutely nowhere for about 2 years
a few months ago, i finally began taking lessons
and one of the tools my teacher uses is as drum machine
I’ve finally made improvements after taking lessons and now im slowly developing a sense of rhythm so i cant really relate to the point you’re making
Hello Adam,
Thank you for this article. It’s very interesting.
I’m not an expert to tell if metronome is that bad or not.
But I still believe that what you say is the truth.
When I hear someone else perform, I can easily tell if it’s out of rhythm and if it slows down or speeds up.
So if it’s possible to hear it with other people, it should be also possible to know with ourselves when we play.
When we dance, as long as we are aware of the pulse and not moving randomly like some people do, we feel that pulse in the body.
We can see Art Blakey dancing in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynZDm50EgBY
His foot on the hi-hat is marking every beats.
I think that to keep good time has also something to do with confidence. But of course you have to be confident to dance. It’s linked.
It requires more “discipline” to follow our own pulse when practicing, than using a metronome. We have to be honest with ourselves and rigorous. But relaxed and instinctive at the same time. It’s a balance.
In the end, I think music is very subjective. I don’t care if a musician used a metronome or not, as long as his music touches me. There’s no rule…
And I like some electronic music. It has a very different feeling of course than the groove masters like Alvin Queen for exemple…
There’s different cultures, and different approaches. None can be wrong, but it’s very good to be aware of all these differences.
I don’t write very well, because english isn’t my first language. I hope there’s not too many mistakes.
Have a good day
“It’s a 12/8 rhythm where all the 3’s 4’s 6’s and 12’s subdivide”
Woah! I think I just understood something incredible!
I can run at a regular speed, it’s the same phenomenon when I’m jumping. I can feel the time, because of gravity… And it’s the same with dancing.
Keeping a steady pulse becomes nearly easy when I try to feel that pulse in the same way of jumping or dancing.
Of course, it won’t be as precise as a metronome, but I think groove is a flow. It can fluctuate a little bit. It’s like a river. Well the changes of speed aren’t really done on purpose, but if you’re really good, you know when it must absolutely not slow down or when it can get a little bit more lazy.
I listened to a tune again from Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers, and I was tapping along to the music while using an app that showed me the BPMs.
The subtle changes in the tempo were part of the big picture… I don’t really know how to explain. What I mean is that it was never wrong, or in contradiction with the soloist. It was musical. Like the differences in volume, when it’s quiet or explosive and loud.
Now what is impressive is that some people are able to do very intricate and syncopated stuff, without loosing that pulse.
What you said with the 12/8 rhythm that subdivide gives me some ideas…
Everything exists in 12/8 time signature. You can divide every beats in three or four, it just depends on the accents. But it’s the same time signature, just a lot subdivided.
Here you get eighth notes:
One… 2… 3… Four… 5… 6… One… 2… 3… Four… 5… 6…
And here quarter note triplets:
One… 2… 3… 1… Two…. 3… 1… 2… Three… 1… 2… 3…
You’ll always have a pulse as a reference, that way.
That’s so fascinating.
If I sing the quarter note triplets with the subdivisions, I won’t sing it the same way as If I sing the quarter notes with the sixteenth notes subdivisions of a 3/4 time signature bar. But I can switch from one to the other without loosing the pulse.
It’s like looking to a cube like this and deciding if we see the outside or the inside, understand what I mean?
https://i41.tinypic.com/1zy8z6o.jpg
Without the doted lines, we couldn’t know.
Well, if it had real perspective it wouldn’t work though.
If it works with 12/8 that subdivides in 2, 3, 4, 6 and 12, it works also with 5/4 that subdivides in 2, 4, 5 and 10. And also with 15/8 that subdivides in 3 and 5. And so on.
Don’t hesitate to tell me if something doesn’t make sense.
Hi Adam,
I was wondering how did you learn to keep the form of a tune? Thats the trouble I have in terms of time as a musician.
Adam, I love your blog, but I think this is one of the times where I have to disagree with you.
The metronome is not supposed to override your own sense of rhythm. It just sets the pulse or the beat. There is a difference between rhythm and pulse. The metronome just sets the pulse. You can layer whatever rhythm you want on top of it, and once you have some experience locking into the click, you can push or drag the beat as needed, or even ignore it when you need to do a rubato or a dramatic pause.
You admit that you’ve never used a metronome for more than 5 minutes, so of course for you it feels unnatural and awkward. It’s kind of like aerobic exercise – if you hate it, that’s a good sign you need to be doing it more often.
Of course, you’re an amazing guitarist, who has had the benefit of natural talent and/or experience playing with great musicians. Just because you’re lucky enough not to need a metronome, doesn’t mean that there aren’t a lot of clueless newbies out there who can’t find it useful.
Even if you never use it in a live or recording situation, it’s still helpful as a practice tool when you’re learning a difficult piece, either to force you to slow down and learn it correctly, or to check that you can play the whole piece at full speed, and identify the weak spots.
Oh and by the way, I tried jump-roping with a metronome after I read this and not only was it entirely possible, it was easy and fun. How’s that for a way to teach your body to move in rhythm?
Joe – actually I agree with what you are saying. There are times now that I do use a metronome for slowing things down, so believe me I have used them for more than 5 mins.
However, the 3 dimensional nature of what African Rhythm has to offer brings a musician into “body” rhythm – like dancing. That is not intrinsic to a metronome usage. Simply telling students to use a metronome is harmful, IMHO because they can develop perfect “time” yet not develop any groove at all.
So, it’s a question of who is using the metronome, and at what level of groove they are at. I have played with many musicians who have perfect time and absolutely no groove whatsoever. I have also played with groovers whose time speeds up / slows down.
Adam,
I find your take on rhythm interesting, as so far all your articles, but I find that using a metronome shortens the learning process letting me learn the melody and rhythm faster so I can spend more time on applying the groove when I do play with others. A groove is the message on top of the beat which move into and threw the melody and hormones of the tune. 4/4 is four quarter notes evenly space in a measure, time is technical, swing is the groove on top on the of a beat, rhythm is the both together and is join with melody and/ or not to make music.
This is my opinion formed from 64 years drumming and 34 of playing guitar.
Hi adam
thanks for the post and while i agree with the groove factor can i just state that i also agree with your comment on arguing about groove is like arguing about religion ….totally pointless.
I have been learning for just over a year now and my teacher uses both ways. The metronome is so i learn the actual timing of a piece, i am the sort that tends to speed up when i am concentrating on what i am meant to play. However once i get the timing in my head he then says now go practice without the metronome, that way the feeling of the song can come out.
I agree that if you play constantly with a metronome and not other players you will never get into that groove that is also important, for me it just helps to not rush past others playing at first.
Thanks for this as it does raise important points on playing which is not just timing but feeling and getting into that groove that every musician should be wanting to do.
I do agree with the sentiment of this article, however, I have a couple of issues with it drawing from my own experience…
I started learning bass when I was about 18 – 20 years ago. I learned in the bedroom and that’s where my bass playing stayed for 3 or 4 years. After that period I joined a band, I was lucky enough to find myself playing alongside a very experienced drummer who led a samba band when he wasn’t behind a kit. I remember staring at that stick striking the bell of his ride for the vast majority of our practices, for the first year or so. That was my metronome. It wasn’t about groove at that point, I just was not experienced enough to play in time, let alone groove, without focusing all my energy on hearing that ‘ping-ping-ping-ping’. I was constantly ‘at risk’ of jumping ahead, slowing, wavering and that ride cymbal held me in check.
After a while, some 6 hours a week playing with that drummer I developed my own internal clock, I started being able to play ahead of the beat, behind it, on it, whatever. Through that I started understanding how groove works. I was educated enough to hear the differences.
I stopped playing bass about 10 years ago, my main creative outlet moved away from music into performance in the theatre… I continued ‘dabblling’ in music but it was just that, occasional forays.
About 6 months ago I bought a house and my music started to gain focus again. I built a little home studio. I got a musical saw… then a euphonium… then was offered a drum kit by a friend who had had it in his attic.
Right now I’m playing 2 or 3 hours a day.
My sense of timing has deteriorated in the period I have been away from the rhythm section, I have not the muscular control to play accurately yet either. At the moment I am not solid enough to play in a band. I have, after much searching, found another guy close by who plays bass to jam with for a couple of hours every two weeks. The bassist has never played in a band and so I find I am the solid one, timing wise, between the two of us… However, I’m far from solid, groove or otherwise, I simply play out-of-time a lot.
This is my point really… Right now I have two options as far as support for my timing goes… I can play along to tracks or I can use a metronome. The latter I use when doing basis muscle memory exercises to point out that my arm hesitated before a beat when I didn’t want it to or to tell me that my swing or groove has actually turned into something that is actually out-of-time. I also use the metronome when composing and improvising my own little solo sessions so I don’t slip back into bad habits and undo all the work I’m putting in on muscle memory.
This isn’t perfect, I would rather be playing with other, better musicians, leaning on their expertise to keep me on track but I don’t have the social resources to play/practice every day with real musicians at the moment.
Fact is, no-one wants to play with a drummer who can’t keep fairly solid time, never mind grooving. If I want to be able to get into a band any time soon… the metronome is, right now, for me, that stick on the bell of the ride I set myself on when I was learning to play solidly with a drummer all those years ago.
When playing with a metronome I practice playing on the beat, in-front of it, behind it. Swinging, grooving, whatever. I think this is an important consideration… If all I had ever done was play to a click I think your article may apply, I may never have understood that sometimes I may want to rush onto the click, sometimes sit back after it. However, knowing this I am sure that it is not harming my groove, it only gives me a point of general reference which, at this present moment I can get from nowhere else.
…Oh I can’t wait to have that click in me again! That sense, to just feel it… Oh to groove again! 🙂
Hi Adam, I’m drummer, and you’re right, it’s impossible fix tempo/pulse timming issues with a metronome. The metronome doesn’t helps at all in order to feel the duration of a musical note. Maybe for metric studies, but not for keep time. But wait, I found huge benefits with some students in using a metronome with a click per measure (or two measures, depends on time). And I said huge benefits cause my students use this metronome only for one or two months, then, they leave it forever. English is not my idiom, excuse my sintaxis. Regards.
Hi,
I like to use a metronome, not for groove but for working through challenging sections and then working away from the metronome.
Have you seen this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v5eBf2KwF8
I think it sums up your point visually.
Seems obvious that the metronome can be a great tool for practice and figuring stuff out. It’s for when you’re doing something inherently artificial. like taking a finger exercise and speeding it up to 200 bpm., just to get your hands into a new time frame. But I’m with you, MUSIC can’t be made by machines, and you don’t want your own music to sound like it came from a machine.
Adam, you said you had an immediate negative reaction to the metronome. I’m curious, why do you think you reacted that way when millions of people don’t?
Metronomes can be useful, I ironed a passage out just the other day with one.
The problem lies in this – people think perfect time = groove.
As I said, groove is like juggling. Only after that is learned could you do it to the “flashing circus lights.”
Groove doesn’t mean you feel it – it means the audience feels it, and it is one of the hardest things to do.
All this said, listen to any jazz / Stevie / Earth wind Fire tune – often they start & end at different tempos.
This article is an attack on the teachers who are side -stepping teaching groove to students and taking the cop out of “well, just practice with a metronome” simply because they do not know how to teach groove.
Playing briefly with a metronome will show me where I am “lacking bottom” in my groove. I will then turn the metronome off, practice – and then maybe do a brief test afterwards.
90% or the time the problem is that I am thinking “melody / fingers” when I need to think “thumb / bottom / groove / foot tapping.”
Just because thousands of musicians and teachers think the m-nome is great doesn’t make it right.
I think many players who play very fast use it to help themselves slow down.
These are all just my opinions, but itthey’res based on 20+ years playing as a jazz pro in NYC and now 10 years as a fingerstyle guy.
Of course take what you can use, leave the rest!
🙂
Compromise: Play along to recordings with a really solid drummer (not some quantized to robotic perfection stuff), but just someone who is just rocky steady with their technique – although very, very very few drummers are naturally millisecond perfect, or eerily close to this.
I found playing to a basic drum beat from a machine way more tolerable than a metronome for practice, but unless the drum machine has a “groove” feature where you can deviate from 100.000% perfect rhythm, it won’t have any groove either, which is where listening to real drummers comes in.
As much as metronomes drive me bats no matter what sounds I try, a little bit of each is probably ideal. Just playing to a metronome isn’t going to murder any “groove” by itself, but I think some of the best drummers are freakishly metronome-like by nature and a lot more fun to jam with!
There are certainly ways to measure tempos in recordings, but if you want to safely stay away from robotic and sterile quantized stuff, unless you know for a fact that a drummer doesn’t use it (some like!) or check for yourself, go back to around 1992-93 or any time before… I’ve heard quantized recordings of real drums as early as 1995, it’s possible there could be earlier ones, although known analog recordings from the early ’90s or before should be a safe bet!
Great ideas, thank you!
Hi Adam,
Many thanks for your comments. Regarding the Alvin Queen video, there is no doubt he is a talented drummer but I don’t see the benefit of showing him running a solo as a demonstration. I would have thought that a video of him playing with the band and controlling the groove would have been more educational.
Anyway, as for metronomes, I have just designed one whose whole purpose is to train you not to need a metronome. A metronome designed to obsolete itself? Yup. Do you have an Apple device? iPhone? iPad? Would you like to try it and tell me what you think?
Kind regards,
AC
Hi there.
I do not completely disagree. BUT 😀
I think this article is fine for Jazz and Pop musicians. But when you want to play classical music by notes, you have to know exactely the note values and you have to play a complete Bach piece in time. EXACTELY in time! And all my teachers (classical) told me to practice with metronome.
2nd thing is playing as a Band along to electric hall, or other electric music you have to stay in time. I got friends who are completely unable to do so and should practice with a metronome. And he got better!
Bye
I feel playing bach with a metronome is quite a bad Idea. Imagine Chopin with a metronome? Impossible.
Yes I agree. But even Chopin had to practice in time. Keep searching!
This article contains the worst advice I have ever read. It contributes to the ego’s of bad musicians that ruin sets all over the place. If you can’t play to a metronome, then you suck. Period. I’m not saying that you should always play live to a metronome, but if you can’t then you’re a hack. I’ve seen so many bands that had serious potential, but were ruined by drummers who never played to click (or just plain couldn’t). Every single song you hear on the radio is played by musicians who are able to play to a click. People often bring up the beatles or led zeplin….well that’s the most egotistical crap ever because those who make such examples are seriously comparing themselves to the upper crust of rock music. It’s just plain stupid and you are absolutely wrong. And, shame on you!
Ron, I am open to a conversation about this but if it’s only about slinging insults I will delete comments, so please be respectful.
There are multiple levels of rhythm, and pure mechanics are good, but not the ultimate goal for groove.
African drummers never used metronomes, so how did they get perfect rhythm? Ray Charles, Stevie Wonder…the list goes on. They did not develop their touch, time, tone and taste with a clicking box.
Please upload a video of yourself playing music with a groove in the comments so I and all the readers can see that you have internalized the concepts I talk about.
If you can’t actually show us all that you can do this, than mere words and ideas are not enough to convince me of your argument.
Also – do you ever go dancing? Do you enjoy dancing? Body rhythm is very different from head-only rhythm.
Adam
Yeah this is tosh. First learn to play with accurate rhythm. Once you have mastered that, then you can take the next step to play freely. It doesn’t work the other way around.
I have always loved dancing, and singing. I have natural timing like is being talked about in this GREAT and inspiring article which I love. it is so on it. The reason I found it is that I am trying to learn Delta Blues playing on guitar and some of the videos teaching it have them saying to use a metronome and it is SO SO wrong , so i thought I would try and find a good article and did here.
When I dance to the type of EVIL music that is mechanically beated like EDM (which some say is a device of the CIA to fk up the mind and community, and I can believe it) you end up feeling LIKE a machine. Horrible!! it is totally different from dancing to real music with soul-filled rhythm.
How many people know the heart does not beat with a mechanical beat, and it it starts doing so your in trouble? Well how much so all natural rhythm? it lives and breathes. You notice this very much when you listen to nature and to music on psychedelics.
Of course there has been great electronic music, such as Oxygene by Jean Michel Jarre, but the usual stuff is HORRENDOUS. its the musical equivalent of Brutalist architecture. It does what it’s supposed to do, brutalizes the mind and soul!
Juliano thank you for the thoughtful post. Glad you were inspired – many others disagree with us! 🙂 AR
You don’t seem to know the difference between playing in time and playing the groove. These are two totally different things. Time has to do with tempo and groove has to do with pulse. You should have both when you play. Some people don’t. But NOT playing with a metronome doesn’t mean you will have a groove. Playing with a metronome helps you lock in a groove. A groove without time is not a groove.
James Browns “Funky Drummer” track – the #1 break beat used in hip hop, swings between 100bpm and 122bpm according to Rick Beato. The steady BPM is really not as important as many people think. Watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orJggsV9JHM
Don’t practice with a metronome? You fucking stupid? I’v heard musicians playing that havent used a metronome, and that is usualy the most HORRIFIC shit i hear.. Either they have no clue what to play when so they’re all over the placr, no direction or they suck ass.. Your eniter post here is based upon ONE persons opinion which most likely never have played in a band.. Don’t listen to this bullshit and use a metronome.. You will thank me later.
Never trust a musician that say he can play on time without a metronome.. Put him in a band, and everyone else will throw him out’a the room in less then 15min of playing.
Nick, I can play with a metronome just fine. Check out Rick Beato’s post on how the James Brown “Funky Drummer” moves between 100bpm and 122bpm – does not keep good metronomic time but feels great: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orJggsV9JHM
Ha ha. Nick, you really have no idea who you are talking to. He has played in major Jazz venues with bands in NYC and all over the world. But please, proceed.
Metronome is essential. I get this groove in the moment thing but in my experience being able to ebb and flow means inevitably means follow the person who can’t keep the meter solid. Who with every fill slows or speeds up. Frankly I find this ebbing and flowing of time is the excuse made by the person in the band who forces the others to ebb and flow with them. A drummer whose meter “ebbs and flows” subordinates other players to be consistently on the look out to match the ever varying tempo. Can never be confident of a rerun as the drummer “ebbs and flows”.
Use a metronome and work toward perfect meter. Absolutely, meter will not be perfect and some songs benefit from tempo variation. In my experience though the ebb and flow argument is made by people who can’t hold tempo.
The litmus test is – OK go ahead and ebb and flow – now lets try rock solid meter. In my experience the drummer who argues ever changing tempo – CAN’T hold perfect meter.
You got it – use a metronome – the ebb and flow argument works in limited forms of music,. Anyone can ebb and flow, can you hold down a tempo?
James Brown’s drummer shifts the BPM a lot – in “Funky Drummer” his time shifts from 100bpm to 122bpm – check this out from Rick Beato: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orJggsV9JHM
I read this article yesterday, after I received your newsletter linking to it.
I guess you miss two points:
In all of your examples all of the great “groovers” have thoroughly learned how to play in time. Be it through family and friends singing and dancing, playing the drums in a group or through a great teacher. This, of course, can replace the metronome as a way to learn playing in time and with the groove.
Second, if I start to learn a new piece I need to take it slow, very slow. Most of the time there is no groove. For me, it is a lot easier to later on find that groove, if I used the metronome during slow practice. The feel for the rhythm is already correct, although there is no groove yet, because it is still too difficult and too slow. For me this feel for the rhythm is the foundation for “groove”.
For performing you are right. Groove is what you need. For learning to groove, I still think a metronome is one legitimate instrument to help.
Thanks Sebastian!
You raise a fair point however i find lately using a metronome in small dose’s helps me hash out some new ideas by usinig it to establish ways of fraising i woulden’t normaly think of . By being deliberate in where i place accsents in each bar got the idea from a you tube lesson. Every time i had a rythem test with a metronome at my music school it would depress me because i had been playing to my own time up untill then. But reading your artical helped me realize i didint have completely bad time i just wasen’t used to playing with a metronome. So thanks! man couldent agree more about groove side of things .
Adam, you are one of my favorite guitarists and I know – you are right. But there is another my favorite guitarist Tommy Emmanuel and I know – he is righ too. Next is copy-paste from Tommy Emmanuel.
“Use a metronome.
Playing with a metronome is very important. When I first used the metronome, it was my enemy. I hated it and it kept slowing down. Actually, it showed me all the faults in my sense of timing.
Once I got used to playing with this mechanical beast, it set me free and I felt liberated and relaxed with my playing. Some songs really work played with a metronome and others don’t. You’ll need to experiment and find which ones work for you.”
Yeah, Tommy and I talked about it backstage. I told “C’mon TE, that’s not how you developed your groove – you played music and felt it!” He kind of smiled and didn’t really say much…with a facial expression, he agreed. He did not and could not disagree with me at all.
He & Richard Smith do practice with metronomes, but it’s a mistake to think they have a groove BECAUSE they do. “THIS does not create THAT” even if they use it.
Many who practice “metronome perfect” have zero groove and many of the best musicians never used them – Dizzy Gillespie, Wes Montgomery, George Benson, Alvin Queen – to name a few.
In student youtube-land everyone talks this nonsense, but go to Harlem or a Gospel church and hang with that groove as a musician. Way more deep bluesy and human than a click machine! That’s the real deal.
I searched for use or not a metronome and found your text with the amazing recording. You are very good. I behave towards metronome like you described, cant bear It, but ive been trying sometimes cause im orchestrating different instruments on daw and i see people using it on tutorials, but i still cant bear It. Even when playing classical music on piano, ive always thought slowing or speeding the music was part of its natural expressiveness, and should be done freely just like the rather free use of key velocity. I guess i will stick with this opinion, even if i have to practice a lot in order to orchestrate.
Im not sure, but the Maestro at an orchestra dont it play the role of speeding or slowing at Will? Or orchestra players practice with metronome? Not sure…
There’s more than one version of whats right. Keep searching within yourself. Thanks for commenting!
Wow this is interesting!
Adam, you’re the first music teacher or musician I hear or read addressing this feeling I’ve been having. I’ve been trying to catch rhythm with my head for the longest time, and it didn’t work out… my breakthrough came when I realized that by listening inside, almost in a meditative state, there’s actually a whole musical universe inside my body, with these strange ebbs and flows… Pulse for example isn’t constant either, it has a natural oscillation up and down – the same with blood pressure, breathing… and when I’m practicing, I can really easily tell if I’m out of groove with myself (it’s the most discouraging feeling in the world).
I feel like I’m still pretty far from being able to groove properly, but this breakthrough of allowing myself to feel rhythm was a bit like when Harry Potter first got his Hogwarts invitation letter. Like, you know, “hey wow with this I might actually become a *real* musician in the end”.
And so I went looking for sources on body rhythm, on routines to improve feeling the groove, and similar stuff, and I found nothing beside this article, and Mac Santiago’s coursebook (who btw recommends using click tracks to internalize time). Unfortunately I live in a very un-bluesy part of the world, so finding an old bluesman mentor is a bit out of reach for now. 😀
i farted on a metronome…. TICK TOCK
Wow, incredibly enduring thread on a great subject that I think you’ve addressed very masterfully Adam. Love your playing too.
In my early years I practiced a little with a metronome and I will say it did help a little to expose my tendency to rush. But the main place I really fixed that was on the bandstand, that is to say, working out this musical issue “in the context of it’s use”, and getting your ass kicked a few times by fellow bandmates, which teaches you faster than anything.
And in general I feel that learning pretty much everything in music in the context of it’s use is by far the most powerful place to learn it and where it gets hardwired into your system in the most musical way possible. The same way that the highest level of language mastery on any linguistic chart is always-“native speaker” where the language is learned almost exclusively in the context of it’s use. It’s where all the linear and non linear elements of the language are perfectly integrated in a way that is almost impossible to achieve academically. And I’m tri-lingual so I’ve experienced this first hand.
And I’ve heard this said so many times about language ‘and’ music- “learn the rules first and then the exceptions to the rules”. Which is so wrongheaded for both language and music. The rules and the exceptions “are” the rules. Or better yet, the “system” the integrated system. And just like with language, learning that integrated system as one thing from the beginning is the key to getting closer to native level mastery, and this goes for groove as well.
Groove, as you’ve pointed out very well, is a very complex integrated system that the sooner you start learning it that way, in it’s entirety as one system, the better you are going to really internalize it, and the better you will sound. And indeed it has to come from your whole body, not just your mind.
I will say the one challenge I find with some students is when they’ve been learning in a very structured system for a long time, then you do need to be patient with them (and they with themselves) and let them gradually let go and discover this very non linear dimension where groove (and music for that matter) lives and breathes.
Good points and intetesting post. I do want to say though that after 3 years of playing guitar, at the age of 17, I started learning theory and how to practice scales etc with a metronome. Before I figured out how to play with the metronome my timing was terrible and I would have to concentrate hard and count to keep time with a drummer. Learning how to play with the metronome taught me to keep time with bands easily, felt natural. I’m now 53 and I remember first trying to simply play scales with the metronome and wanting to scream in frustration. I was trying to play sixteenth notes using pentatonic scales. Took awhile till I figured out I needed to just figure out on which notes to hear the clicks on. Of course this doesn’t pan out so well on things like quarter note triplets and other tuplets so far as I know. Anyway, I would say it’s beneficial to learn to practice with a metronome. That is my experience. I would like to learn more of what you said in your post too though. I think knowledge and learning is good generally:).
When I first read this article, I had never really tried a metronome. I recently got a drum machine as I thought maybe a drum machine will be a good bet. It didn’t work out at all, after just a minute of playing, I threw away the device.
Totally agree with Adam, playing to a robotic time is an idea which should be totally scrapped out, sorry, these devices are just not good for music or practice. And as a fellow commenter said, it is a very unspiritual device, it gets into the way of inspiration/truth and makes you as robotic as more and more folks are becoming.
When I practice rhythm guitar to someone playing live, say a violinist, It feels super good and inspirational, I never get irritated like when using the robotic machine.
We have been really fooled and lots of lies have been labelled as truths in this world.
Thanks Adam for such an enlightening article.
like you say, Europeans use metronomes but it is better for their style of music. dont say that you should not use one because the person may play European music.
I’m glad it worked for you, but I feel it’s bad advice say this like its gospel. They exist for a reason.
I played for 2 years without one (mainly because of financial reasons) and got basically nowhere. Couldn’t even sync up my left hand with my right half the time. I *finally* got one at the insistance of a friend, and ONE WEEK and it was like my skills had doubled. In the 2 months since I’ve skyrocketed.
I really hope people take this at face value and try things their own way, too. Not all of us are prodigies that just get it like you.
I would respectfully say that I think you’re using the metronome the wrong way you want to swing around the metronome and actually get the benefit of the constant time but keep the pulse of the swing at the same time….. Just assume that the metronome is actually another instrument and you’re kind of playing around it, this is great practice and also very functional and recording because you have a constant click to refer to if you want to overdub…. The real problem with the metronome is when you have a piece of music in which the time shifts and in fact the downbeat becomes the offbeat and vice versa very common in certain styles of music at that point the metronome becomes extremely confusing….
This is so interesting. I am surprised there are so many responses! Thank you Adam for this discussion.
I think there are wildly different levels of understanding of this out there, and the commenters I am sure range from very inexperienced players up to probably pretty great players. It’s hard to have conversations between people who are at totally different places.
This is a subtle thing, and I agree totally with what I feel Adam is getting at, and I think his playing demonstrates that he knows/feels what he is talking about. There are things that happen in our bodies, our emotions, etc. from moment to moment which cause things to not be in “perfect” time, and it’s exactly these things that make music feel human and alive (because it is). A metronome cannot do this. Our heartbeats are not in perfect time. Are they “wrong”?? If you give up your own feeling of yourself too much and begin to trust the metronome as an authority, your music will suffer. Follow it too much and your music will be completely dead.
I just had a thought: it seems that—interestingly—the people who understand this are both some of the best musicians, and many total nonmusicians (who mainly understand it intuitively, and gravitate toward real human music over soulless metronomic crap because it makes them feel good), while a group of people “in the middle” who have some “information” which they believe tells them what music is “supposed to be” or how it is to be learned, assume they can apply their simplistic and purely intellectual criteria to it and make a judgment of it, When they hear how real musicians talk about what they do, they are in over their heads, and what is being said sounds “wrong” to them. Perhaps their idea of deviating from a metronome is wildly exaggerated fluctuations, while what is actually being talked about is subtler.
Adam mentions Stevie Wonder, Ray Charles, etc. I want to add Steve Gadd to the list of examples. I remember seeing video of him playing the simplest groove at a workshop—if I remember correctly he was demonstrating a 16th note hi hat thing—and it was absolutely NOT even or consistent, yet it felt better than anything that was ever could! It has stuck with me for years—I was totally mesmerized and felt elated hearing it, I laughed out loud and could not sit still, and couldn’t explain why, but it proved to me that what I am looking for is NOT to be like a machine.
Just for anyone’s reference, here’s a video of my music. It’s not heavily “groove oriented,” and I am not claiming my feel is amazing, however I have thought a lot about time and rhythm (and still work on it a lot), and what my standards are for “precision” vs what level of so-called imperfection I will allow to stand. I do not use any click, or do any editing of the takes and I feel it makes my music breathe and feel better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tXNuU_JVNs
-Russell
So true, so true. I am a miserable guitar player (but a guitar enthusiast) and a drummer/percussionist with over 30 years of experience. I have played a good deal mire than western music – including African, Asian, Balkan, Mediterranean/Latin and Middle Eastern music. And jazz, which is western but with its roots in Africa. When I started to teach certain types of beats, especially irregular rythms (like 5/8, 7/8, Bulgarian 12/8 and worse), I found out that a metronome doesn’t help. Also because there are few metronomes that can tick to that kind of rythm. They are usually made for regular rythms. And because the student sort of missed the essence of the music. So, I used to stand behind the student and tap on the his/her shoulders in synch with which hand is doing what and sort of push a little to give the feeling of the «dance» in the music. When he/she started swaying and dancing, he/she had the metronome inside him/her, and the drums or percussion would come out (almost) right even when the student was technically immature.
If you want to experience what I mean, try to set a metronome to nothing fancier than a good western tango and try to dance to the metronome, not the music 🙂
Great post. I wonder about how I should incorporate drumming into my practice routine to get a better sense of groove? Does buying a practice pad or a conga make sense? Should I seek out African drumming groups to sit in with? Sounds like fun.
Mike – absolutely! I have a full African drum routine I teach students.
AR
I personally found metronomes annoying too. They may be good for tempo but totally inadequate when it comes to rhythm. As someone that fingerpicks, I found your article on this interesting. I was intrigued by your comment about changing your hand angle. My teacher years ago used to try to put my left wrist at an angle which was neither natural, nor retainable. Your reference to drummers and percussion rhythms is good. I have long held there to be a correlation between percussion rhythms and finger pick rhythms.. When I have been seeking out new finger pick patterns to play, I have at times looked at drum rhythms. I have collated over 350 finger picks.
I’m sorry but you’re wrong. Playing with the metronome will not hurt your groove. You should be able to play both with a metronome and without it. Why? Flexibility. Recording is incomparably easier when the musician knows how to play to a click track.
And you know what else? Playing with a metronome can help you realize your mistakes. From my experience, nine out of ten musicians that have never played with a click can’t keep proper time and can’t even hear their own mistakes. They think they’re staying in tempo but instead are horribly out of it, and you can hear this without even using the metronome.
So yeah, sure, I’m not saying that you have to play with a metronome. But you have to be able to. Otherwise you’re denying yourself an invaluable technique as a musician. As I said, you can always turn off the click when you don’t need it. But when you do need it, you had better be able to use it. My groove is just fine, both with and without the click.
Damjan, you say “My groove is just fine…” according to who? Please send me a video so I can take a listen. – Adam
I meant to add something similar in my comment above. It wasn’t until I began recording that I truly could admit to myself that I had a problem with tempo, haha. All those years playing with drummers who kept telling my I was throwing them off, and me – in my typical rock musician’s arrogance – thinking *he* was the one screwing up (of course!), not me (never!).
And lately I’ve been far more serious about recording than ever before, and my sound engineer buddy still gets aggravated with me at times. But if I’ve warmed up before I head to the studio – with a metronome – there are very few hiccups, at least in that department.
Good comment, by the way.
I understand the defensive tone, Adam, but I think we can both agree that “the groove is in the eye…er…ear of the beholder.” And if we’re being honest, do you really think, after reading his comment, that he is going to respect the opinion of someone who has counseled *against* using a metronome? I don’t think you’ll be getting that video, nor do I think your challenge is very fair.
The simple fact is, if you’re practicing guitar soloing, jazz improv and such, I agree, no metronome is needed. If you’re playing an instrumental piece, solo and without percussion, no metronome needed there either. In fact, my guitar instructor used to tickle me when I would crescendo/de crescendo or whatever somewhere in a piece and he’d say, “That’s very musical, Joshua.” And you just *knew*, when he said something was “musical,” that it had a far more profound meaning than when anyone else said it, lol.
But if you’re playing with a full band, an ensemble, or, as Damjan said, when you’re recording, I would strongly advise even the most experienced and skilled player to practice the piece/playlist with a metronome. The last thing you need is your bandmates crawling your ass, and/or diminishing the piece by going off tempo. Just a thought….
You did not address any of Damjan’s points.
Thank you for this thread. It bothers me when people turn music into a religion, complete with dogma and tenants of what is “right”. I play oddly, both guitar and piano, often with alternating timing, and certainly with a lot of swing, and have for decades, but my audience enjoys my groove, especially solo, where there is no external metric. Interestingly, there are a lot of kids in Brazil who cover my music and even make videos–they are not intimidated or at all surprised by my consistent but unusual rhythm patterns and they find their own translation, close to mind but with their own twist, which I enjoy a lot. Often when I play with arguably competent musicians in LA, they furrow their brow and can’t follow it, and kind of treat me like I am doing something wrong. I have been recording again and thought “maybe this time I will try to stick to a metronome in 2/4 to keep the beat more steady. I can only describe using a metronome as akin to taking a bath with your socks on, it is just so uncomfortable. This morning I googled ‘unusual rhythm” and landed on this first. It drives me crazy, that metronome, and I always float out of the click. My songs are lyrically driven stuff, I want to speed up with emphasis and slow down with thoughtfulness as I feel. Anyway, my point being that I appreciate this rather long living thread because it reminded me just to play honestly and not be confined to expectations. Thank you, Adam, a much needed confidence booster, and I will keep that metronome off. The perfection of machines just isn’t what I hear or feel. Keep teaching, sir.